Archive for April 2008
FULL MUSLIM JACKET: A True Account of a Muslim in the U.S. Army
***Goatmilk Exclusive***
A true story, first of three parts.
By
Corporal Youssef Snuffy
I was in the Reserve Officer Training Corps or ROTC when the attacks on September 11, 2001 occurred. Every American felt something on that day. Those of us in ROTC knew one thing … we would be going to war.
Everyone deals with war in a different way. But as a recent convert to Islam I had a lot more to worry about. How was the Army going to treat me? Would I be cast out, scapegoated, ran out or worse? Stories about Chaplin James Yee and the John Walker Lindh (American Taliban) didn’t help.
Luckily, I was chosen to receive more schooling and went to law school. However, this educational delay wouldn’t last forever and soon I would be back in the Army. A new army, a changed army, I would also be changed.
Before being a cadet in ROTC I was an enlisted soldier. My military occupation specialty or MOS was a combat engineer (code 12B). I volunteered to be a paratrooper and was stationed at Fort Bragg North Carolina. I was placed in a combat unit and trained. Trained all the time, trained for a mission that under Clinton never came. However, I always knew there was something more for me out there than being a grunt with C4.
Being a paratrooper in a combat unit means you give up, on occasion, substantial freedom. You are subject to room inspections in the morning and at night. You sometimes are locked down and on 2-hour recall for parts of the year just in case we had to go to war at the drop of the hat. Peculiarly, any time I was reading during a nightly room inspection my team leader would ask, “What are you reading … the Qur’an?”
Prior to joining the Army, I involved myself with some haphazard soul searching. Sometimes it involved learning about religions and trying to find the meaning of God. Other times in involved various recreational activities of which I am not proud. The Army, at first, delayed this soul searching as I got caught up in an isolated lake called “the barracks” and like a piranha went into a drinking frenzy.
After about a year of drinking almost everyday I decided this is not how to live life and stopped. At the time it was normal for me to vomit almost every weekend. Something that is so foreign to me now.
During a real soul searching session before joining the Army I caught a hint of a religion called Islam. I knew very little about it. No one teaches you about Islam in public school where I come from. You would have to specifically ask to learn about it in a college course, but I was a chemistry major. But I remembered one tenet was no drinking.
After I stopped drinking I picked up a copy of the Qur’an and began too read. One evening, just like every evening when I was reading, my team leader asked in a harsh yet civil tone, “What are you reading … the Qur’an?” To his amazement I was. Shortly there after I left the army and was in ROTC in sunny southern California.
To be continued.
FINDING BIN LADEN WITH MORGAN SPURLOCK: An Exclusive Interview
FINDING BIN LADEN WITH MORGAN SPURLOCK
By
Wajahat Ali
I met with Morgan Spurlock, documentary filmmaker and star of the newly released “Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden” and the Oscar nominated “Super Size Me,” at a posh Palo Alto hotel where the small coffee costs four dollars (thankfully including milk and sugar.) Despite becoming famous and notorious after using and abusing himself as a laboratory rat by eating three super sized MacDonald’s meals a day for a month [Super Size Me], Spurlock exudes an amiable, goofy “regular guy” charm. After meeting him, one understands how his humorous, good-natured masochism, as evidenced by the increasingly bizarre and theatrical stunts he pulls on his hit show 30 Days, makes him likeable and appealing to mainstream audiences.
However, categorizing Spurlock as either an MTV Jackass or shameless, sensationalist self-promoter would be premature and incorrect. Spurlock primarily wants to educate America about pressing socio-political topics using entertainment as the sweetener to make the harsh medicine of reality easier to swallow. His “info-tainment” approach finds its most ambitious and controversial hurdle in his latest movie where he traverses the globe, hitting all the “Muslim danger zones” [except Iraq and Iraq] to find the elusive Osama Bin Laden. The impetus for such a bold adventure arises from the birth of his new child and Spurlock’s desire to make this increasingly insane world safer for future generations. While watching the movie, one realizes Spurlock intends to accomplish this task by communicating with Muslims around the world and hearing their side of the story in order to build a bridge of understanding between the two “civilizations.” Here’s an exclusive conversation I had with Morgan Spurlock a week before his new movie’s release.
ALI: First of all, I don’t know whether to punch you in the stomach or hug you for Super Size Me…
SPURLOCK: (Laughs) There was a guy that I met in Texas who came up to me and said, “I just want you to know that I hate you.” I said, “Why do you hate me?” He goes, “Cause every time I go to a fast food restaurant, I gotta buy two big drinks…
ALI: Why don’t you and Eric Schlosser [author of Fast Food Nation] just ignore this? Why can’t ignorance be bliss for you guys…
SPURLOCK: (Laughs) Hey, Eric was first. He came long before I did.
ALI: Some would say what good came from this masochistic enterprise?
SPURLOCK: I think the greatest thing that came out of that film was… for me, people say, “Look at the way it made this company look at the way they do business.” For me, I think the greater thing that came out of that film was the way it affected people. I get stopped by individuals all the time and they talk about how it affected how they eat, how they exercise, how they sit down and had dinner as a family. A mom stopped me on the street and said, “I saw your film and now we eat dinner as a family every night.”
There’s a guy that stopped me in the airport last week and in Chicago who said, “I told myself that if I ever got to meet you in person, I would thank you. I want to show you something.” He reaches in his wallet and pulls out a picture of him 150 pounds heavier. He said, “That was me right when I saw your film. I lost 150 pounds since then.” There are all these things that affected people in a very personal way and it empowered them. This film empowered a lot of people to say, “I’m going to change. I’m going to do something better.” And that’s incredible.
ALI: Here’s a criticism you got for that documentary. They said the test subject that you used – yourself – and the means by which you used it – three big super-sized meals a day – is not indicative of the average American’s consumption. Thus, the results are either exaggerated or hyperbolic and that lays to waste any claim that this could be hazardous.
SPURLOCK: But there were plenty of doctors… I mean, Dr. Gangi, who was one of two of my gastroenterologists in the film, she went on to write a paper for the Journal of American Medicine. She’s seen people for years who had been coming in for long term liver damage that she thought was food related. So she basically says, when she sees this film, that here’s an example of what can happen to you over 5, 10, 15 years of eating a diet that’s filled with this. Maybe you don’t eat McDonald’s three times a day, but I know plenty of people who will have McDonald’s one day, fried chicken the next day, Pizza Hut the next day, and then Wendy’s the next day and they say, “Well, I only eat McDonald’s once a week.” But then they’re filling in the gaps with Applebee’s and TGI Fridays and all of the other things that we think are….
Voice in background: 30 Days. 30 Days, right? That was you that worked all month in McDonald’s. That’s you!
SPURLOCK: I did, yeah.
Voice in the background: Get the fuck outta here!
SPURLOCK: (Laughs)
ALI: I’m gonna use that. Now I lost my train of thought.
Voice in the background: How was staying in prison for a month, honestly?
SPURLOCK: Not good, I don’t recommend it.
Voice in the background: Man, I’ve been there five times, and I still don’t seem to get it. Anyway, it’s amazing to meet you.
SPURLOCK: (Laughs) Nice to meet you. Thanks a lot.
ALI: He’s got a new movie out.
Voice in the background: What, “Stay Away from Burger King?”
ALI: Well there you go. Case in point. Speaking of masochism, let’s do a Freudian Spurlock-on-Spurlock analysis.
SPURLOCK: (Laughs)
ALI: In Super Size Me, you gained 25 pounds, destroyed your health. You also went to jail (in 30 Days) for 25 days. Anyone who’s gone to jail or knows anyone who has knows that it’s not a good place to go. For “Where in the World is Osama bin Laden,” your new movie, you travel to the most dangerous parts of the world. So what prompts this daredevil journalism.
SPURLOCK: For me, I think Super Size Me really pushed me on a path which led to 30 Days on [US television network] FX. This idea of being able to look at someone else’s life or go somewhere that most people would never get to go, experience things that most people would never get to experience, and kind of tell a story through that. What I’m going through, you’re going through, what I’m feeling, you’re feeling, what I learn, you learn. That excited me a lot. It started with Super Size Me and then transcended to 30 Days in a much different way, and grew a lot. What I get out of it, I find to be incredibly gratifying as a filmmaker and as a person, as a human being. Going into a situation and going into these environments makes me have a much better understanding of people who are there. To strip yourself from a lot of the things around you that make you comfortable is a really challenging thing that most of us don’t do or don’t get a chance to do.
ALI: A lot of people don’t know that you actually started off as a playwright and then turned into a documentary filmmaker. So were you officially starving to death on your typewriter?
SPURLOCK: No, I was starving to death years before that. I was working in the film industry too and was writing screenplays at the same time. Where it was the hardest was when I started a company called The Interactive Consortium, which we called The Con. With The Con, we ultimately made Super Size Me. There was a time before 9/11 where we were strapped for cash and I was using credit cards to pay my employees, pay the rent, and pay other credit cards. I got evicted from my apartment. I was sleeping in a hammock in my office. I still had an office, so I thought, “It’s not over yet!” I was going out with Alex at that time, so she loved me and supported me then so I was lucky. Right about that time was when MTV green-lit our show, “I Bet You Will,” and picked up the series. Ultimately it was the money we made from that show that paid for Super Size Me. You can’t predict how things are going to work out.
ALI: I have to ask this question, even though I know the answer. You’re this tall, blonde, blue-eye’d white dude. You say, “I’m going to go to a Muslim country and make a documentary called, “Where in the World is Osama bin Laden?”
SPURLOCK: We were talking about that film [after] the first season of 30 Days. It had started to air when we started talking about what movie we were going to do next. We were already producing a film, “What Would Jesus Buy,” that I was producing out of my office in New York City. For me, I wanted to try to find something for my next movie that would deal with something that didn’t just affect Americans or that wasn’t just an American film, but dealt with all of us, that touched all of us in some way. So it was 2005. Bush had just been elected to a second term. Some new Osama tape came out and every TV station, every radio station was talking about it, saying, “Why haven’t we found this guy? Where is he? We want justice. Where in the world is Osama bin Laden.”
And I thought, “That’s a great question. I’d like to learn that too.” So that was the jumping off point. I’m going to go look for this guy. I’m going to find out why we haven’t found him and start to give the whole background into the government’s search for him. We raised a little bit of money to start pre-production. About two months into that process was when we found out that Alex was pregnant. There was a real “Oh, should we be doing this” moment. This isn’t a smart thing to do. This is a mistake.
She and I talked about it and the more we talked about it, the more she saw why I wanted to make the film and why it was important to me. So she agreed. She didn’t like it, she didn’t think it was the smartest thing to do, but she was incredibly supportive and is a saintly human being for putting up with me and encouraging me to do the things I want to do as a filmmaker.
That’s when the movie really shifted for me. It went from being “Where in the World is Osama bin Laden” and what kind of world creates Osama to what kind of world am I bringing a kid into. It took a turn. That became the driving force behind all the questions.
ALI: So about the blue-eyed, white guy chilling in the Middle East… there had to be fear….
SPURLOCK: Oh, of course. I went in with all my preconceived notions that there was going to be a lot of hostility, there was going to be a lot of resentment. And we did encounter some, everywhere we went. We did find people who didn’t like Americans, but the majority of people wanted to talk to us. The majority of people wanted to sit down and have a conversation and tell us how they felt.
The one thing that I did when making this film that my mother would be very proud of was that I actually listened. My mom always used to say, “You’ll be a better kid if you just listen.” So when people would be unhappy or upset, I let them talk and let them vent and then we could have a real conversation. We could really just talk about things. And you hear things that are disheartening as an American, how much people hate your country and what they think of you on the world stage. How they used to idolize your country and look up to it and now they don’t anymore. Like the guy in the film, he says, “we’ve grown to expect a lot more from the United States.” It’s tough to hear.
ALI: If you go there as a Muslim, you get treated like everyone else. But as an American, when I go back there, they hate you as an American.
SPURLOCK: So you get it from both sides? That sucks.
ALI: Yeah. A teacher of mine once made this point. He said the best teachers are 75% theatrical, 25% teaching. I noticed this in the movie, you use a lot of video games, a lot of computer graphics and cell animation. Is this the way to make your points more accessible to the mainstream?
SPURLOCK: Definitely. Absolutely. One of my beliefs as a filmmaker is that if you can make somebody laugh, you can make them listen. With laughter, you can get somebody’s guard down, you can open them up to listening to you. They don’t feel like they’re being preached to or talked down to. I think it helps, it makes really hard to understand information a little more accessible and palatable. And at the end of the day, it makes a movie a little more fun. It doesn’t feel so heavy handed.
ALI: Wouldn’t some consider that condescending, this leaning towards infotainment?
SPURLOCK: Well, these are the same people who said we were making light of a serious issue, that you can’t make a joke about this. Lily Tomlin said something years ago, and I’m paraphrasing, that you have to find humor in everything, because by finding humor, you find humanity. And I think that’s what comes out of this at the end. There’s a tremendous amount of humanity in the film, and it’s obvious. It really does come from the people that you meet, the situations you’re in, and the humor that develops from it.
From me wearing traditional clothing in places where I am a big, tall white guy… the fixers told me, “No, you should wear traditional clothes. It’ll endear you to them. They’ll want to talk to you, they’ll embrace you.” And it’s true. Everywhere we went, the minute I showed up wearing shalwaar kameez or a thobe with a kafiyyeh, people would say, “Oh you look like a Saudi. Look at you!” All these little things really seem to matter. (16:20)
ALI: How did you as one guy travel around the world and get access to, as you said, actual Muslim people. Whereas if CNN, Fox News, and multi-million dollar corporations for the past 6 years have not been able to give this very simple, but real, examination of the Muslim people?
SPURLOCK: For me, that was one of the big things. We talked to a lot of politicians and we talked to people you usually see in the media. And when you get back and you start putting this movie together, it really became obvious to me that the story was the people, the people that I don’t get to see on two minute sound bites on the news. It painted a portrait of what life is like for a lot of these people around the world.
Even in places like Saudi Arabia, there were so many women that were open to talk to us.
ALI: Here’s a criticism you’re going to get. This is typical, progressive, knee-jerk, anti-American propaganda, spawned by Hollywood and Spurlock.
SPURLOCK: For me, I don’t think it’s typical at all. You’d be hard pressed to find my opinion in this movie. What you hear is a lot of other people’s opinions and their outlooks. One of the things I’d like people to really take away at the end of the movie is… how does it affect them? How does it affect you? What do you believe? I don’t tell you what to think. I tell you how things personally affect me, but I’m not telling you what to think. We went into this with the best of intentions and I think those intensions play out over the course of the movie.
ALI: On Rotten Tomatoes, some of the critics are saying, “You know what, nothing’s resolved in this movie. He doesn’t provide answers. He doesn’t tell us anything that we already don’t know. And he didn’t find Osama.” Well intentioned, but nothing revelatory.
SPURLOCK: And if you haven’t heard, fast food is bad for you as well. Super Size Me at the time got a lot of the same criticism. But at the same time, Super Size Me reached an audience that didn’t consume news everyday and didn’t know everything that was happening all over the world. I think we’ve unplugged and become very apathetic to a lot of things that are happening. There’s so much going on and we’re sort of disconnected. Even for the people who are already media savvy, who read the New York Times everyday, there’s still something new in here. There’s a great chance for this to sort of bridge a gap.
I spoke to a woman who went to a screening and took her 14 year old son to the movie. And she is a media hound – reads everything, knows everything, watches the news. Her son plays in a rock band with his friends, plays video games everyday, has no clue what’s going on. Afterwards she said, “I want to thank you because I had the first political discussion about what’s happening in the world with my son after seeing your movie.” That’s a fantastic thing to hear.
ALI: I see that the movie is mainstream entertainment that actually shows Muslims as human beings, not caricatures. And it seemed that the Muslim enemies weren’t devils, didn’t have horns on their heads. They were very opinionated – most of them I didn’t agree with, some of them I did. It seems that the title should be, “Who Cares Where’s Osama.” Am I right?
SPURLOCK: I think that’s what starts to come out toward the end of the movie.
ALI: Why do you think most of the Muslims you interviewed throughout the world just don’t care whether he lives or dies? This could be a heavy discussion in the sense that they say, “Even if he dies, it doesn’t change anything” and “Who cares where he is? It doesn’t matter. That’s not the problem.” And then here we have the video of certain people saying, “Osama, Osama, Zawahiri, Zawahiri,” etc. So what’s the disconnect? Why this feeling?
SPURLOCK: There’s a great line from the guy in the Palestinian Territories who says, “We all hate Osama bin Laden because he gives a bad name to Islam.” One of the things that I think hasn’t happened is that you haven’t heard from this silent majority. And it is the majority of people that we spoke to over the course of this film. They don’t agree with Osama and hate his guts. They think he does not represent their religion. They believe he misinterpreted it and taken it to a level that none of them think should be happening.
The question is why don’t we hear from them more? Why don’t we see them more? Even in the media, there’s this hard line of news that “if it bleeds, it leads.” If somebody is saying, “We’re all the same. I’m just like you,” that’s nice and all, but that doesn’t sell papers.
ALI: The movie focuses, like you said, more on the human side instead of the political…
SPURLOCK: There’s a lot of political discussions. For me, the best moments are ones when people open up their homes to me. We were shooting during Ramadan, and I was fasting to build a bridge…
ALI: How was that like?
SPURLOCK: I didn’t make it.
ALI: It’s the water right?
SPURLOCK: That’s the worst part. Here we are, in the middle of the desert shooting in 100 degrees and you can’t drink all day. It’s rough. I made it about 3 weeks. I did alright. I owed 8 days.
ALI: That’s still impressive though. The movie has its politics. There’s this one scene where you as a filmmaker come out with a political side. You show an amusing animation of the Shah of Iran, Saddam was in there, Pinochet, and you have Uncle Sam. For those of us who know American history, we know what this is about. But how many Americans do you think know about this part of our foreign policy history and do you think, when you do it through animation, will it educate them, push them off, all of the above…
SPURLOCK: Probably all of the above. I think there will be a lot of people who see it who have no idea of the depth of that. I think a lot of us just don’t know. When you show the animation, a lot of people will see it and will be upset (at the content) and others will upset with me that it’s even in there. But just to have a talking head discuss this – it’s very dry, it’s very boring. When you see the Statue of Liberty shaking her groove thing for President Mubarak, it’s a little more amusing.
ALI: So why do Muslims hate America?
SPURLOCK: I don’t think Muslims do hate America. I think that’s what we hear and that’s what we believe. I don’t think that’s true. I think most Muslims are incredibly upset with the state of our foreign policy today and the state of the world. Even pre-9/11 to where we are now, post-9/11, I don’t think its just happened in the last seven years, although what has happened hasn’t helped. But there’s a variety of things that upsets people and when you see the clips in the film, you see what people are angry about.
(26:47) We did a great interview with Mike Scheurer, who’s the former head of the Bin Laden unit at the CIA , and one of the things that he said that happened is that people realize in the Middle East, rather than attack their own countries, they should attack the protectors of these countries – which is the United States. So that’s when a lot of hatred really began to develop towards the US in the places where we go to – Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, you name it. And people look at the regimes that are in power there as being puppet governments that are being supported and backed by the United States. And they look at it as being unfair.
ALI: Let’s say Muslims in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or in these countries with puppet governments. What do they want? What do Muslims want? From life, from the world…
SPURLOCK: I think the one thing we talk about in the film is that people want things to be fair. They want things that we all want. They want to be able to get jobs, they want to be able to provide for their families. They want to be able to have free speech and say what they want and know they’re not going to end up in jail, like a guy that we interviewed in Egypt named Saad Ibrahim – he’s going to be on the DVD, but he’s not in the film – he was in jail for years for speaking out about Mubarak and the election process and he was tortured and jailed. So, these people, they want fairness. That’s it.
They also realize… they’re not blind to the idea that there are still people out there who will act out in a certain way that will potentially damage their own views, which is what has happened.
ALI: I don’t know if you’re aware of this – there’s this Gallup poll that was released about a month ago, the world’s largest poll on Muslims. And what they realized was when they interviewed Americans, 57% of them, when asked the question, “Do you have anything good to say about Muslims or Islam?” they said either “No” or “I don’t know.” As compared to Muslims who, when asked the converse question overwhelmingly cited the idea of democracy, free speech, the economy. So why do you think, being an American and travelling to the Muslim world, there’s this huge disconnect as an American when it comes to this view of the world?
SPURLOCK: Well there’s also an interesting thing that happens over the course of the travels when we’re talking to people and they would say, “Look, we don’t hate Americans, but we hate your American government. We hate the American foreign policy.” They make a disconnect between the people and the government. I would explain to them that the people elected the government, they’re people we voted for. And they say, “Yes, but once people get in power, it’s corrupt and we know how government is.” They all know about corruption.
And we only see one side of Muslims and Islam and the majority of what we do get to see is the guy who’s screaming and yelling “Death to America” and burning flags and George Bush in effigy. That’s the lead story. So what’s in the newspaper? Who’s on the front cover? “Muslims caught at this airport, want to kill somebody.” You don’t hear “Muslim saves little girl from burning building.”
ALI: Muslim bakes cookie.
SPURLOCK: Muslim bakes giant cookie, wins contest. Muslim boy scout helps old lady cross the street. The good news vanishes because of the small minority that makes the most noise.
ALI: You and a few other movies, like the Jimmy Carter movie for example, Man from Plains, you show us what life is like in the Occupied Territories, in the West Bank and Gaza in actual footage. Which is rare. Carter said that he thinks that if universities in America sent select students for three days to Palestine, and they come back and write a report and disseminate it, our entire perception of the area would change. As a person who actually went there – and it’s shown in the movie – what do you think? Do you think Americans just need to know what’s happening there?
SPURLOCK: Well, I think people need to see on both sides. Seeing how the people in the Palestinian Territories can’t move around – it’s a maze now, with the wall, the road blocks and everything else. It takes you hours to get from one person’s house to your job or to a friend or even to the hospital if someone’s hurt. Then you go into Israel and see in Tel Aviv, where they have 12-18 bomb threats a day, which are real. It completely disrupts their life. Or Sderot where bombs are falling daily from the sky fired by Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip. You’re there and it’s difficult to see and it’s hard to imagine. I think the more people that go there and see this – and go to both sides – it can only help. I don’t think we’ve had the opportunity to do that.
ALI: In the movie, you show both sides. It seems the majority of individuals understand that the situation is unsustainable for the future. Is that what you got out of…
SPURLOCK: …nearly everyone we spoke to. The question is then, well why can’t it change? We did a great interview in the movie with a journalist in Israel, and he says, “All you need is one thing.” As many people could want peace as you could possibly imagine, and all you need is one guy to blow up a bomb in Tel Aviv or one settler to hurt a Palestinian in the territories. And all the work you’ve done towards peace will be over.
ALI: This is a really interesting moment in the movie, and everyone in the audience was taken aback by it, when you went with good intentions to a really religious sector of Israel. Why did they behave the way they did?
SPURLOCK: A couple of things about that scene that I liked. One is that it’s a very small amount of people, about 5 or 6 that got very loud and confrontational with us, and we were completely taken aback by it. Apart from being a closed group, you know there were Orthodox Jewish group and they are very protective of who they are and they have a strong dislike of the media. But, when you’re there with giant camera I’m sure that doesn’t help them like you. What I love about that scene is that guy who makes it a point to come up to me and say that “Listen what you see here, the majority of us don’t think like this minority, these few that are being confrontational with you” and you see this in the film. And he was concerned about the perception. And for me there is this fantastic parallel of perception that comes through, and we see it weave through. We see other people in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and these people who are fighting against this perception.
ALI: One of the most interesting and surreal parts of the movie was this interview with these two children who look so terrified that they can’t even answer a question without getting approval from the principal. Saudi Arabia is such a schizophrenic society…
SPURLOCK: It’s almost like there’s two societies, there’s this incredibly conservative front. But behind the front, there’s complete Westernization. There’s malls everywhere and people love music, movies. I met guys there who’ve seen Super Size Me and they’ve seen the Muslim episode of 30 Days. You can do pretty much anything you want behind closed doors.
ALI: When you walked around, did you notice externally there was a more rigid aspect of austere piety?
SPURLOCK: In Riyadh especially, you see the mutawwa openly telling women to cover their faces, or telling boys to not be around the mall. In Jeddah, it’s completely different, you see some of the women in the grocery store there and they aren’t wearing hijab, and some of them are completely covered. Just between those two cities, it’s very different.
ALI: Were you able to ask anyone in Saudi Arabia, very repressive in its policies towards its citizens, yet one of the biggest allies of the United States… are the Muslims and Arabs that you talked to aware of this hypocritical and fascinating relationship?
SPURLOCK: Oh, yeah. A lot of people that we spoke to said it’s a complete contradiction. They said, “Listen, we want things to change, but we can’t change it overnight.” But how long does it take is the question. They don’t know.
ALI: One of my favorite quotes from the movie, because it’s such an ethnic uncle quote, is when you ask an Afghan guy, “What do you think of Bush?” and he goes, “Fuck him…”
SPURLOCK: And we say, “We’re looking for Osama bin Laden.” And he says, “Who is that?” “That’s the guy who blew up the buildings in America.” And then he goes, “Fuck him and fuck America.”
ALI: That is a microcosm, it seems, of the overwhelming sense of dislike or apathy for both.
SPURLOCK: Especially in Afghanistan where you have a country filled with so many people who had so much hope in 2001 when the United States came there, who were incredibly oppressed by the Taliban. Here came these liberators who came into the country, took Kabul very fast, got rid of the Taliban immediately, and suddenly these people had their lives back. Girls could go to school again. It changed the face of that society. They were like, “We’re going to have electricity and roads and schools.” And now here we are, six or seven years later, and people are like, “We still don’t have those things. Why can’t things work quicker?” And it’s tough to hear that.
We did a great interview with a guy who works in one of the guest lodges there who says so little of the aid money hits the ground here. Who knows what happens to it? Nobody knows.
ALI: Was it devastating to observe these men and women mired in poverty?
SPURLOCK: It’s like a third world country. We were driving along the road to Tora Bora, and there was this little field where there was a group of kids with their teacher, and he was holding a chunk of rock which was their chalkboard and that was their school! It’s hard to see.
ALI: Talk to me about security. How secure are the armed forces in that country?
SPURLOCK: Those guys are targets everyday. On this trip, where I felt the most exposed was when you were embedded with the troops. And those guys went out of their way to protect us and they’re heroes for what they do: they put their lives on the line for us every day, to help us. One day you’re driving along with them on a convoy and they find an IED, so they divert our convoy back to the base, while explosive guys go detonate the IED. It’s frightening. Any day something terrible could happen.
ALI: In the Middle East and third world countries, they say 9/11 was a tragedy, but that tragedy happens on a daily basis for us – Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan. They say, “Why are you so bent out of shape when you have one terrorist act when we have so many?” Did 9/11 endear the world community toward us or did they feel we deserved it?
SPURLOCK: There was a great interview we did – there were so many, we had 900 hours of footage for an hour and a half movie that we cut down– in Saudi Arabia, I met a guy at a gas station. He says, “Come back to my farm.” We sat on the back of his truck and talked in the middle of the desert. He said, “When 9/11 happened, all of the world, our eyes filled up with tears, we wept for America. What has happened to the world since 9-11, now we weep for America for different reasons.” It’s tough, you know, post 9-11 countless people we spoke to said we squandered our goodwill. People say, “You took down Sadaam Hussein. So, why don’t you leave?” And that’s hard to hear. They say what’s happening now is only making things worse. Countless people say the greatest recruiting tool for Al Qaeda is everything that is still happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. It’s hard to hear that your good intentions are making things worse and tragic.
ALI: I don’t know if you did this deliberately, but I think you did. You have these Muslims in the Middle East talking against US foreign policy and US exploitation sitting in Starbucks.
SPURLOCK: Isn’t that great? But in the Occupied Territories it was “Stars and Bucks.” It speaks to this Western influence that has gone everywhere. Apparently around the world that’s where people meet. There’s a street where the kids cruise up and down in Riyadh. At one end where they turn around, there’s a Chilli’s and at the other end, it’s a McDonalds. And they’re listening to hip hop. It’s amazing. There’s an underground culture in Saudi Arabia of music, parties, and premarital sex… everything.
ALI: If Americans knew most of this world digs our culture, our music, our celebrities, that they speak English, would it make a difference?
SPURLOCK: It’s a step. It would help. Who knew the common denominator to bringing peace to the world would be professional wrestling? It’s amazing. It’s what we all love about wrestling: it’s good versus evil, it’s us versus them. In all these countries – Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Morocco – it’s incredible, everybody watches.
ALI: The Economist called Pakistan the most dangerous place on earth. What were your experiences?
SPURLOCK: Pakistan is beautiful by the way. But places like Peshawar, people are watching you, and asking, “Who is this guy?” At one point, we were being followed by this big, unmarked car, which I’m guessing it had to have been the ISI. We had to actually bribe our way to the country; we got our visas in Kabul and had to bribe the embassy guys to get us in Pakistan.
ALI: The movie ends with a burst, in a sense. After all this devastation, it seems, it ends on a hopeful, optimistic note. And you come back, making it back in time for the birth of your son. Is it going to get worse before it gets better? This world you’re bringing your kid in?
SPURLOCK: I’m optimistic. I’m hopeful. I think what you see in the movie is that there is a vast, silent majority you don’t get to hear from. The more we hear from those people, the more what is happening can happen the other way, where a small amount of people can make so much noise that it silences them. If you turn the tables, you can start to keep those people in check.
ALI: What’s up next?
SPURLOCK: I got approached to be one of the directors for Freakanomics, an adaptation of that with five or six directors. It’s a chance to work with some amazing people. A lot of great filmmakers. I just got approached, so we’re trying to see how it’s going to work out.
ALI: Ok, anything I miss?
SPURLOCK: I think we hit it all.
HOWARD ZINN Interview – Goatmilk Exclusive
ZINN SPEAKS
By
Wajahat Ali
At 85 years old, the indefatigable Howard Zinn still maintains the prolific activist and academic jab fueled by his political and social activism nurtured during The Civil Rights Movement. The esteemed historian and controversial rabble rouser’s seminal work, The People’s History of the United States, taught in high schools and colleges across the nation, has been adapted as a documentary, The People Speak, featuring readings by Sean Penn, Matt Damon, Viggo Mortenson and Marisa Tomei. Still touring and giving lectures, Zinn shows no signs of stopping, however his hectic schedule has slowed to devote more time for his family obligations. After nearly a month of back and forth emails and missed opportunities, Professor Zinn agreed to an interview reflecting on his historic and memorable time at Spelman College in the ‘60’s, his thoughts on the Democratic Party, his philosophy of dissent as democracy, and his hope for America’s future.
ALI: Your experiences and acts of civil disobedience at Spelman College are, by now, thoroughly well known. However, in the 21st century, one could look at the student body at many liberal college campuses and see that fiery protest and consciousness replaced by apathy and materialism. Where has that fighting spirit gone? You spoke against “discouragement” at the 2005 Spelman College commencement speech – what of it now?
ZINN: What you describe as the difference between the Sixties and today on campuses is true, but I would not go too far with that. There are campus groups all over the country working against the war, but they are small so far. Remember, the scale of involvement in Vietnam was greater – 500,000 troops vs. 130,000 troops in Iraq. After five years in Vietnam, there were 30,000 U.S. dead vs. today we have 4,000 dead. The draft was threatening young people then, but not now. Greater establishment control of the media today, which is not reporting the horrors inflicted on the people of Iraq as the media began in the U.S. to report on U.S. atrocities like the My Lai Massacre. In the case of the movement against the Vietnam War, there was the immediate radicalizing experience of the Civil Rights Movement for racial equality, whose energy and indignation carried over into the student movement against the Vietnam War. No comparable carry over exists today. And yes, there is more materialism, more economic insecurity for young people going to college – huge tuition costs putting pressure on students to concentrate on studies and do well in school.
ALI: You were heavily involved in the Civil Rights Movement that dealt not only with racial empowerment and equality, but also re-examination of U.S. foreign policy and withdrawal from the brutal Vietnam War. Here we are now in 2008 with a seemingly unending, and many say illegal, occupation of Iraq. “Racism” has emerged as a contentious topic due to Obama running for President and his Reverend’s controversial comments. Yet, most say he and other candidates talk “pretty” but are unwilling to fundamentally confront and change the problems of race and foreign policy. As one who has observed this socio-political climate from the grassroots since the 1960’s, what has changed if anything in regards to racial enlightenment and the humanizing of non – American, “foreign others”?
The Civil Rights Movement was an educational experience for many Americans. The result was more opportunities for a small percentage of Black people, perhaps 10% or 20%, so more Black youth going to college and going into the professions. A greater consciousness among White people – not all, but many – of racism. For most Black people, however, there is still poverty and desperation. The Ghettos still exist, and the proportion of Blacks in prison is still much greater than Whites. Today, there is less overt racism, but the economic injustices create an “institutional racism” which exists even while more Blacks are in high places, such as Condoleeza Rice in Bush’s Administration and Obama running for President.
Unfortunately, the greater consciousness among Whites about Black equality has not carried over to the new victims of racism – Muslims and Immigrants. There is no racial enlightenment for these groups, which are huge. Millions of Muslims and an equal number of immigrants, who whether legal or illegal, face discrimination both legally from the government and extra-legally from White Americans – and sometimes Black and Hispanic Americans. The Democratic Presidential candidates are avoiding these issues in order to cultivate support among White Americans.
This is shameful, especially for Obama, who should use his experience as a Black man to educate the public about discrimination and racism. He is cautious about making strong statements about these issues and about foreign policy. So, in keeping with the tradition of caution and timidity of The Democratic Party, he takes positions slightly to the left of The Republicans, but short of what an enlightened policy would be.
ALI: You said the democratic spirit of the American people is best represented when people are picketing and voicing their opinion outside the White House. How does this nature of dissent and protest serve as the crux of a democracy and a healthy, functioning civic society? Many would argue this is divisive, no?
ZINN: Yes, dissent and protest are divisive, but in a good way, because they represent accurately the real divisions in society. Those divisions exist – the rich, the poor – whether there is dissent or not, but when there is no dissent, there is no change. The dissent has the possibility not of ending the division in society, but of changing the reality of the division. Changing the balance of power on behalf of the poor and the oppressed.
ALI: The People’s History of The United States is now considered a seminal work taught in high schools and universities across the country. Why do you think the work has had such lasting, influential impact?
ZINN: Because it fills a need, because there is a huge emptiness of truth in the traditional history texts. And because people who gain some understanding on their own that there are things wrong in society, they look for their new consciousness; their new feelings to be represented by a more honest history.
ALI: Minority voters, like Hispanic Catholics, voted solidly for Bush in 2002, and some sons of immigrants have virulent anger and disdain against “illegal” immigrants. It seems many marginalized voices have forgotten their history and now side with those actively intent on keeping them either on the sidelines or in some form “oppressed.” How do we explain this discrepancy?
ZINN: It is to the interest of the people in power to divide the rest of the population in order to rule them. To set poor against middle class, White against Black, Native born against immigrants, Christians against other religions. It serves the interest of the establishment to keep people ignorant of their own history,
ALI: Most say that corporations now own American media. What is the proper outlet for democratic discourse and dissemination of information if indeed there is a biased monopoly over media?
ZINN: Because of the control of the media by corporate wealth, the discovery of truth depends on an alternative media, such as small radio stations, networks like Pacifica Radio, programs like Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now. Also, alternative newspapers, which exist all over the country. Also, cable TV programs, which are not dependent on commercial advertising. Also, the internet, which can reach millions of people by-passing the conventional media.
ALI: Will anything change in regards to US foreign policy in the Middle East, specifically on Palestine and Israel, if the Democratic Party wins in 2008?
ZINN: The Democratic candidates, Clinton and Obama, have not shown any sign of a fundamental change in the policy of support of Israel. They have not shown sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people. Obama has occasionally referred to the situation of the Palestinians but as the campaign has gone on, he seems reluctant to bring this up, and instead emphasizes his support of Israel. So, a change in policy will require more pressure from other countries and more education of the American people, who at this point know very little about what has been happening to the Palestinian people. The American people are naturally sympathetic to those they see as oppressed, but they get very little information from political leaders or the media, which would give them a realistic picture of the suffering of Palestinians under the Occupation
ALI: How can “the left” reconcile their assumed indifference to religion with the growing “religious” sector of society siding with the “conservative” parties? Can there be a peace between the two or is this a permanent schism? I’ve noticed bigotry on both sides, between the “secularists” and “religionists.”
ZINN: The Left needs to more clearly make a distinction between the bigotry of fundamentalism and the progressive tradition in religion. In Latin America, there is “liberation theology.” In the U.S., there were the priests and nuns who supported Black people in the South and who protested against the Vietnam War. So, it’s not a matter of being for or against religion, but of deciding whether religion can play a role for justice and peace rather than for violence and bigotry.
ALI: Most don’t know that you were a bombardier during WW2. Did this experience bring about the “anagnorisis” and epiphany catalyzing fundamental changes in your ideology?
ZINN: I did not know much history when I became a bombardier in the U.S. Air Force in World War II. Only after the War did I see that we, like the Nazis, had committed atrocities…Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, my own bombing missions. And when I studied history after the War, I learned from reading on my own, not from my university classes, about the history of U.S. expansion and imperialism.
ALI: You’re now a man in his golden years, and you look back at your many accomplishments. You’ve done amazing things. Any regrets? And also, if you could choose something that would embody your legacy – what would it be?
ZINN: I have no regrets about my political activity, only that I sometimes got carried away with it and didn’t find the right balance between obligations to my family and my need to be involved in social movements. As for a work of mine that embodies my “legacy,” probably it is not one book, but rather the combination of being a writer and an activist, being a public intellectual, by using my scholarship for social change.
ALI: Many look to the future horizons with bleak, cynical eyes foreshadowing disastrous scenarios resulting from our hubris and excess. Recession. War. Deficit. Extremism. Global Anti Americanism. Insincere Partisan politics. Will we implode? Can we move forward? Do you have hope for the future of America?
ZINN: The Present situation for the U.S. looks grim, but I am hopeful, as I see the American people waking up and being overwhelmingly opposed to this war and to the Bush regime, as I reflect on movements in history and how they arose surprisingly when they seemed defeated. I believe the American people have the capacity to create a new movement, which would change the direction of our nation from being a military power to being a peaceful nation, using our enormous wealth for human needs, here and abroad.
Wajahat Ali is Pakistani Muslim American who is neither a terrorist nor a saint. He is a playwright, journalist, essayist, and Attorney at Law, whose work, “The Domestic Crusaders,” (www.domesticcrusaders.com) is the first major play about Muslim Americans living in a post 9-11 America. His blog is at http://goatmilk.wordpress.com/. He can be reached at wajahatmali@gmail.com
“THE VISITOR” – Interview with Filmmaker Tom McCarthy and Richard Jenkins
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Drumbeat of peace
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Generally, tales of immigration, multicultural America, and “East meets West” culture clashes either immerse themselves in clichéd, cartoonish, stereotypical comedies or overt, bleeding heart, political slogans masquerading as plot narratives. Thankfully, Tom McCarthy, director of the runaway Sundance hit The Station Agent, creates a realistic, warm-hearted relationship drama about communication, redemption, and frustration focusing on the unlikely friendship formed between Walter, a depressed widowed university professor, and Tariq, his good natured Syrian musician immigrant friend.
In the course of teaching Walter the drum, their relationship blossoms and grows to include Tariq’s beautiful but reserved Sengalese girlfriend, Zaynab, and his widowed, Syrian mother Mona. altmuslim associate editor Wajahat Ali recently talked to director Tom McCarthy and lead actor Richard Jenkins about this new movie.
The movie has constant interactions, mostly very amusing and light and some tragic, between Eastern and Western cultures, but never done in a stereotypical way. Why do you think the drum awakens Walter more than the piano, which is more emblematic of “the Western culture?”
JENKINS: He’s looking in the same place for different answers and it ends up the same. You know, the piano, that world he’s in, it just doesn’t seem to float his boat and he can’t find his way out of this feeling. And I don’t think he consciously is saying, “I’m depressed” or “I’ve given up.” But, when he’s thrown in with this young man and his girlfriend in that world, I just think that the little light goes on that says “Maybe this is what I need. Maybe this is who I am.” I think the drama is more of an emotional instrument. It’s not as precise as the piano and it takes kind of a visceral commitment as opposed to an intellectual one.
A lot of people who are critical sometimes of Hollywood’s portrayal of ethnic minorities say there’s a certain type of character, whether it’s an African American or Asian or Middle Eastern, who they call the “magic dark person,” the “Bagger Vance…”
JENKINS: (Laughs)
MCCARTHY: (Laughs)
…who gives an infusion of funk and groove to the White character and then jigs away. And here we see all the characters develop an arc that exists outside what one would call the stereotypical “White man” point of view narrative. We actually see the lives of immigrants and their hardships. Why did you choose this nuanced narrative, when the more stereotypical and perhaps more lucrative Hollywood approach would have sufficed?
MCCARTHY: That’s just my style. That’s the kind of movies I want to make, the kind of movies I want to be associated with. I just think they’re more authentic and realistic. And I think ultimately, audiences respond to that. I think we’re led to believe that the audience needs this more fictionalised approach to storytelling. But I think audiences – and I know by screening it around the country, everywhere from DC to Phoenix to LA to Dallas to Chicago. Audiences are looking for authenticity. They’re looking for characters and movies that mix comedy and drama like this. And they really just respond to that. Sometimes we think they need to be more spoon fed information and they need to be handed things with a little more of a candy coated fantasy life to it. But what I find audiences really want is to invest in characters they can really believe in. And I think in terms of storytelling, I like the sort of set characters, real characters in place, and just let the events unfold organically. To me, this felt organic and felt authentic, I guess is the word I keep coming back to.
The Visitor – it’s a really clever title. The Visitor in one way can refer literally to immigrants who come to this country. Another spin is Walter visiting Tariq in jail. But it seemed to me that Walter was the visitor – an old American finally confronted with a new America that’s always existed under his nose. What’s your take on it?
MCCARTHY: I would agree with all those things. I think all those things are completely valid and maybe would also add to it that here’s a guy, in Walter, who’s sort of visiting his own life, sort of half heartedly. I remember Richard actually said this at one point… it really depends on what moment you’re at in the movie to understand who’s visiting. I think Walter is a visitor. I think certainly Tariq and Zaynab are visitors. I think it really depends on just where you’re picking up in the movie.
This is sort of what I really loved about the title. I think it implied, both specifically and universally, to the theme of the movie. Or themes.
Richard, do you think Walter is in fact the “visitor” in this movie?
JENKINS: I always thought he was, yes. I know that Tom [McCarthy] warned me he won’t commit to say who is or isn’t or what is. But I always thought that, yeah.
There’s going to be critics – I’m assuming it’s pretty sure it’s going to happen – who say this movie is just typical, flaming liberal, pro-immigrant, anti-conservative, Hollywood propaganda, humanising of Arabs and Muslims…
JENKINS: What a terrible thing, huh?
How would you or how have you responded to that knee jerk criticism?
MCCARTHY: I don’t really. I think people, you know, as in every aspect of this culture, they will have knee jerk criticism. I would say watch the movie and then decide. People will have that. I can’t control that. All I can do is present it and I do know that all of these experiences are, for me, personal experiences. They’re not fictional experiences. I lost my anger at a detention center. Much worse than Walter did. I went on the other side. The guy invited me back to continue the conversation and we were practically chest bumping. It was insane. I completely lost my cool. Walter experiences a similar thing. That’s a personal experience. That’s not a dramatic convention. I think this is far from a Hollywood movie in most ways. So I don’t think I can plainly apply that. But I think there is something cathartic in terms of that moment. But you know… yeah, you’re right. There are people who are going to say this and that.
I think that when you have any issue that is slightly political. I think this detention-immigration storyline is really a B storyline – it’s a C storyline. It’s there. So there are political aspects to the script. But I sort of defy anyone to make a modern day movie in New York and a thinking movie – a smart movie – without having a political element. I think that’s not only irresponsible, but it’s just unrealistic. I don’t know how you could have someone from another country in a movie in New York and not be dealing with some sort of political or social idea.
I was talking with an interviewer a while ago now, and someone said to me, “you have to admit, this guy you put in detention, he’s sort of a harmless Arab character, wouldn’t you say?” And I just went silent for a good minute and thought, “OK, that’s why I made this movie.” I don’t know what he’s referring to. Like, it’s so out of my realm. The fact that it was a writer was staggering to me. I thought, “Wow, is that really where we’re at?” You wouldn’t say, “Well, that’s a harmless gay character, a harmless black character.” Then you would realize that it’s weird.
Tariq is completely indicative of four or five different characters that I spent time with in Beirut. And spending time with these guys, I was like, “I gotta grab this character and I’ve gotta put this character in a movie.” It’s an original character to me, to my personal experience. I think while other people are maybe casting aspersions and knee jerk reactions… it’s like, “Well, have you done your research? Have you walked in not only my shoes but their shoes?” If so, then so be it.
JENKINS: I respond to it by saying that it was never an immigration movie. For me, that wasn’t what it was. It was a relationship movie. I know Tom said he was in Beirut and with his movie [i[The Station Agent and he met a lot of artists over there and he came back and he worked with them for something and he said, "I've never seen this portrayed on film. I've never seen these guys. And I want to portray them on film."
And it's about people connecting from different backgrounds, people that wouldn't probably be thrown in with each other. Everything changes when we know someone, when we stand in his or her shoes for a minute. I mean, I don't even know what my opinion on immigration is. It's so complicated. I just don't know. But I do know that it does change your ideas and your feelings about things can be molded if you know someone who is in that situation. It isn't just a political theory. I think that's what Tom's trying to do.
But I always saw it as a story about people. I know it's simplistic, but that's how I always approached it.
You make a really good point. The human aspect of the movie - there's no mention of Democrats or Republicans or politics. Last year, a lot of these movies, well intentioned, failed...
JENKINS: I think sometimes if you start with a political idea, that's a problem. I think that Tom never did that. Tom started and ended with a relationship story, a human story about these people. And this just happened to be part of the story.
You bring up some really good points here and it leads into what I was going to ask you. As a Muslim person myself, let me thank you for actually having good looking Muslims in the movie first...
MCCARTHY: (Laughs)
...who actually speak English and use sentences and don't blow themselves up. It seems very simplistic, but you're right. You find yourself talking to educated people who should know better but don't. You actually cast Arabs for Arab-American roles, and that's unfortunately quite rare in Hollywood. How important was it to transcend these loathsome stereotypes we're bombarded with on a daily basis?
MCCARTHY: To be honest, when I finished The Station Agent, I got a call from the State Department and they were like, "Would you bring the movie to the Middle East? We want to send your movie as sort of an artistic outreach." And that's what sent me to Beirut.... first Oman, and then to Lebanon. And it was my first time in the region. To be quite honest, it was my first immersion into Arab culture. I was like, "Oh, my God."
I was in Beirut - I don't know if you've ever been there - I fell in love with that city, man. I fell in love with the people and was like, "Man, I want to do something here." And then I was invited back with this organization called Beirut PC, a wonderful organization there. It's like a film collective. They run the Beirut Film Festival, and they invited me back to work with young filmmakers developing a short film. So I went back and my passion for the people of that city was deepened.
I got back and was like, "OK, I've gotta immerse myself into the Arab culture here in New York and did so. I made a lot of friends, started hanging out in lots of different places. A friend of mine, she runs the Near East department at NYU, I attended a lecture of hers. It was great, it's a wonderful part of the job. I just want to meet as many people as I can and get a sense of this culture at many levels - academic, social, artistic, professional, anything. There's so many aspects. Going a concert with a friend of mine who's Palestinian and experiencing it all. A lot of that stuff gently sort of found its way into the movie. It was such a fun part of the writing. It was not really writing, it was experiencing life.
When you sit down to write, you want to get it right, you know what I mean? When you sit down to write, you want to get it right. You want to sort of present something that my friends now would sort of read and say, "Yeah, that's me. That's part of my culture. That's part of who I am. And I knew I was on to something because when I started to audition for this role in LA, in New York, in Paris, a lot of young Arab actors would come in and say, "Hey, whatever happens, thanks for doing this. It was a pleasure reading the script. It was a pleasure to prepare for this." I heard that again and again and again. It was sincere and I felt like I'm getting something right here. I'm sort of on to something that I feel is authentic and honest to both my experience and to people of this culture. So getting that right was very, very important.
Richard, your character reminds us of so many men we know, men weathered by age and grief and those who sometimes repress their passion and anger and frustration under a veil of stoicism. What causes Walter [the 62 year old, White, college professor protagonist played by actor Richard Jenkins] so stiff and a curmudgeon at first, to be so selfless with Tariq, Zaynab, and Mona [the undocumented Muslim immigrant characters]? Is it liberal guilt? Is it some savior complex? Is it a selfish, redemptive need and feeling for usefulness? What do you think?
JENKINS: Well, I think subconsciously they are what he’s looking for. He would never think to look there. And I think, what he sees… there’s something about this Tariq [the young Syrian musician]. There’s a vibe there. I don’t think it’s an intellectual choice on his part. I think there’s something that draws him in. He finds a connection because there’s something going on in this young man’s persona.
You seem to have a fulfilling career and you’re doing what you love, it seems, very passionately. Why did you choose this role of Walter and how did you tap into that repression and that anger?
JENKINS: I chose it because I haven’t read a script this good in… God, I just loved every second of it when I read it. And, you know, it’s an actor’s trade, it’s an actor’s challenge. That’s what we love to do and we love to find those places in ourselves that are closed off. And I approached it like I approach everything else that I do. But I have to say, this script was amazing and the people were amazing. We worked for two weeks with each other and got to know each other, understand each other a little better. So by the time we started shooting, we were friends.
Here’s a small criticism some have said about Walter’s character arc. Some say his apathy, which transforms into rage at the injustice of it all at the end, could be an unrealistic arc. What’s your take on that transformation? Could that have happened or is it glossed up for the sake of Hollywood fiction?
JENKINS: Absolutely it could happen. If you think he says, “We’ll get him [Tarik] out [of immigration detention] now” to Zaynab. Like “I’m here now, everything’s going to be fine. Now the grown ups are here. I’ll take care of this,” and the realization that she is just as helpless as anybody else and can’t do anything. That was absolutely real for me and, I think, really logical. I didn’t feel it was a stretch at all.
I agree. That’s my take on it as well. There’s going to be debate – there already is debate – and some criticism about the film’s ending (and for those people who don’t know anything about the film’s plot, don’t worry, I’m not going to ruin it). But we see Walter playing the drums in the subway. To me – and this is just my opinion – this is a language in which Walter can convey his anger – through art. And I recall the first scene where he played and the character Tariq says, “Don’t hit it like you’re angry with it.” So, what’s your take? Is it passion at the end? Is it anger? Is it freedom?
JENKINS: It’s all that. Absolutely all that. There is anger and there is freedom at the same time. There’s no ending, there’s no “everything’s fine now.” Cause it isn’t. That’s what I felt when I was playing. I felt angry and I felt free at the same time.
MCCARTHY: I think yes to all three. All of the above. I think all of those – and I think I would add to that conviction. He is now a man with conviction and purpose. And I don’t think he was at the beginning of the movie. I think in some sense there’s an emotional renaissance of this character – of all the characters on some level. And that provides the film with a hopeful quality. That the end is not just – it’s not a bleak ending in some odd way. It’s not because I think the most important thing that’s been forged here is this connection. And this connection is palpable and this connection is hopeful. Richard’s somewhat defiant – or at the very least defining act – in the last scene, without giving it away for those who haven’t seen the movie – makes the case for that.
Let me ask this question from the ethnic minority perspective. Muslims, Arabs, Middle Easterners are very skeptical when it comes to Hollywood portrayals of them. It’s been a dishonorable smearing and caricaturizing for nearly a century. How is this movie different in that regard and can this movie in 21st century cinema truly be a vehicle to bridge those gaps? Do you think that the depictions can really change this negative perception? Can it get better?
JENKINS: I don’t know. I know Tom was incredibly… his desire to bring these people who he hadn’t seen on film to film, he just hadn’t seen this world before. And I know he was very careful in trying to portray these people as they really are. Not as how we perceive them in films or on the news, but really as human beings. That was his goal. And as I said, he worked with so many artists in Beirut and just fell in love with them and said, “My gosh, I just don’t see these guys in films.”
So, I hope so. I don’t know what the politics are and I don’t know what one feels about immigration, but I do know that once you know somebody, everything changes. Maybe people will stop and think, “What if that was my kid? How would I feel?” Because it is somebody’s kid. I think if it does that at all, it’ll be nice.
MCCARTHY: I hope so. I hope it continues to open. I think there’s a lot of interesting stories and lifestyles out there. I think there’s so many wonderful things to explore just in terms of storytelling and I think we ought to open our eyes a little bit and see, like Walter does, that some of those things are right under our nose. For me as a writer, I look at it as such a wealth of material, all these different backgrounds and cultures. For me, it’s just exciting to explore. Hopefully everyone else will continue to do that. There are a lot of young, wonderful writers doing just that. Hopefully, times are a-changin’.
The Visitor opens this week in the US, July 4th in the UK, and September 17th in France.
Bulbus and Rotunda’s Anniversary: A Children’s Story
***(Editor’s Note: This short story was written when I was 21 for Ishmael Reed’s short fiction class at U.C. Berkeley. First time published.)***
Bulbus and Rotunda’s Anniversary
By Wajahat Ali
In a land not too far away, in a time not too far back, there lived a simple loving couple in a simple cottage house celebrating their fiftieth marriage anniversary quite simply.
“Silence your undulating phallus, Succubus! Thou art the most vile, reprehensible, ungodly, irretrievably ugly, debased, bestial creature that I have ever laid my fair eyes upon,” shouted Bulbus lovingly, as lovingly as he could in his thick brogue towards his lovely wife of fifty years, Rotunda.
The Succubus just sat there and laughed her usual demonic laugh, probably summoning all the powers of her evil, dark relatives from Hell against me. Laughing at me with a piercin’, shriekin’, banshee laugh of hers which sounds like two mutated goats in heat fornicatin’. The laugh that’s like a dagger ripping through my flesh. Flashin’ those putrid teeth of hers, which resemble jagged rocks painted yellow and fungus green. I am forced to listen to her inhalin’ and exhalin’ with each monstrous nostril. I’m amazed that air can even escape that thick maze of nostril hair. Snortin’ her laughs and rubbin’ her belly like a well kept sow, the Succubus sneers at me with those oil black, reptilian eyes of hers, mostly covered by large flaps of eyelid fat.
Fat. A very descriptive word. The three letters F-A-T combined together basically describe the bovine that is my wife. A behemoth, stout bovine with uncombed, coarse greyin’ hair on the head…and other places, mind you, standin’ on what appears to be two inverted bowlin’ pins that I like to call her legs. My God, look at the size of those! But, hopefully, if the angels are by my side, I won’t have to gaze upon them ever more after tonight.
“Oh, shut yourself up, ya no-good, bald plated, impotent, flatulent son of a thievin’ whore. At least my phallus undulates, as it should, unlike someone’s I know. Hmmm? What’s that? Cat got your tongue? Probably has pecked your pecker as well. Probably played a little diddle on that tiny fiddle. Probably played a doodle on that limping noodle. Probably picked a berry that wasn’t that hairy,” scoffed Rotunda lovingly, as lovingly as she could, towards her beloved husband of fifty years, Bulbus.
Fecus, as I like to call him because his entire body permeates a terrifyingly, mind numbin’, odious odor, sits there on his oak chair where his GI-gantic arse has left a permanent groove in the wood. He’s red with anger –as usual. Oh, how I love it when I get him riled so. It just tickles me pink. Ah, one of those feelings that make a lady feel alive again.
Sigh.
But then I see that pathetic, hulkin’ slob of a man, my soul aches with disgust again. The ogre grovelin’ away at the turkey – my turkey! Even eatin’ the bone with his three good teeth. A pity. The creature with the tinier brain eatin’ the creature with the larger brain. How unfortunate – a word that perfectly describes the man, and I wouldn’t even call him that but I’m feelin’ generous today, that happens to be my husband. He usually sits on his arse groove because his pregnant belly conveniently hangs over his belt, almost conveniently coverin’ his family jewels.
The added weight from the front end is almost, but not quite, counterbalanced by the heavin’ sacks of gravy that I like to call his arse on the back end. It would be enough to balance both sides, however one must take into account his saggin’ man-breasts that push the scales in front and cause his height to decrease by about 5 inches. It’s convenient for him though; at least he can lick off some of his spilled food from his collars. Speaking’ o food, I actually tried makin’ the turkey somewhat tasty tonight – thought he might as well enjoy the last few licks he’ll ever have.
“This turkey tastes like somethin’ the devil himself crapped out!” complained Bulbus vehemently. “Oooooh, God Forbid, the Succubus could’ve made somethin’ edible for once. Why don’t you use some of yer black magic voodoo potion and ask yer relatives from Hades for a tasty recipe?” asked Bulbus in a sneering, sarcastic way that only Bulbus could.
“Oh, quit yer yappin’! You wouldn’t know the difference considering yer obscene lack of personal hygienics,” retorted Rotunda. “Now why don’t you shut yer balls for once and quit complainin’ ya three toothed, hairy, incompetent wolverine. Eat yer food and don’t mess up my anniversary party,” demanded Rotunda in a snide, condescending, emasculating way that only Rotunda could.
“Patience, Bulbus, patience,” Bulbus told himself. “Just tolerate that banshee’s screams for just a tad bit longer, and then sweet, heavenly silence shall be yours for eternity. All I have to do is act cordial and nice for a moment and propose a toast. I’ve done that before, I recall….where was that? Ah yes….the time I sold my humanity and soul to Satan and married his bride, the Succubus!!! Argh! I’ll try not lookin’ at her directly, lest her Medusa-face makes me vomit her wretched excuse of a turkey- dinner, and instead propose a toast.”
“Don’t inhale for the next two minutes,” Rotunda coached herself. “Try to bear his noxious odor for a little while longer, just a few more minutes take in the fumes of ugly and then ye can finally be free. All I have to do is smile and propose a toast, and unnatural elements shall take care of the rest. Smile, I remember I did that once, ah yes, right before I gave my chastity and purity away to the obese, baldin’ anti Christ himself!!! Just smile and propose a toast.”
“I prop -,” started Rotunda.
“I prop –,” started Bulbus.
“Oh, please you first, my…fair lady,” gushed Bulbus biting his lips in an attempt to hide his childlike glee.
“Oh no, no, no umm brave err most umm non-obese prince, you first,” pleaded Rotunda. Averting her eyes from Bulbus and dry hacking in response to her false words.
“Well, if I must. A-hem. Let me begin To Rotunda, the most eloquent…loving…and healthy…very, very healthy wife a man like me could ever have. I propose a toast to you and our…oh so happy, happy 50 years of marital bliss…and hopefully many more years to come.”
“And to you, Bulbus, my…oh…so charming…fragrant prince…you have pleased me…in ways…. that no man ever has…nor can. I, in return, propose this toast to you and our…oh so happy, happy 50 years of marital bliss…and hopefully many more years to come.”
Rotunda and Bulbus both drank from their respective goblets, looking at each other all the while. Both hardly able to contain their happiness as they imagined their new lives and new beginnings. As their lips and tongues caressed the sweet wine, Rotunda and Bulbus, eyes on the other, momentarily recalled a brief, fading flicker of happiness both felt on the day of their marriage. After the moment faded, both the goblets fell to the ground, and Rotunda and Bulbus began their new journey together.
Wajahat Ali wajahatmali@gmail.com
